The Christchurch Civic Creche Case

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Transcripts of Interviews with child witnesses

Tess Hickory aged 6, 2nd interview recorded 28 May 1992

(Names as used in the book "A City Possessed" )

Q††††††††† What happened then?

A††††††††† Ah, we played snap.

Q††††††††† Right, okay, all right, now, um, ah, now look, ah, what, what I need to know is, um, has anyone ever touched your vagina in any other way before or not?

A††††††††† Mmm, no, yeah, my mumís touched it with her hand.

Q††††††††† Yeah. What did she touch it with her hands for?

A††††††††† To wash it.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† Well, itís Mum so it doesnít matter.

Q††††††††† Yeah, right, and does she still wash it for you or not?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Do you wash your own?

A††††††††† I do my own and I sometimes wash her back and sometimes she washes my back.

Q††††††††† Right, okay, and, um, so she touches with her hands when she washes?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Mmm. Has anyone else ever touched your vagina with their hands before?

A††††††††† Ah, Dad.

Q††††††††† Dad has?

A††††††††† Yep. But no one else.

Q††††††††† Right, okay. I guess, I guess what I heard was that someone had, I heard that someone, you had told Mum that someone had touched, touched you.

A††††††††† Who? I canít remember.

Q††††††††† Touched your vagina and your bottom.

A††††††††† Who?

Q††††††††† With their hands.

A††††††††† Who?

Q††††††††† And their fingers.

A††††††††† I canít remember.

Q††††††††† Do you remember telling?

A††††††††† Saying that?

Q††††††††† Right.

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Do you remember now?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† If anyone else has ever done that. What was Dad touching it for?

A††††††††† He was what, doing it when I were a baby washing.

Q††††††††† Oh, right, looking after you and stuff?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† To put on my nappies.

Q††††††††† Yeah, doing normal mother and father stuff.

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Yeah. Okay, so, um, so I guess what Iíve heard of the, someone else has touched you down there with their fingers, with their hands and fingers.

A††††††††† Who? Who? Myself? Was that a joke or something?

Q††††††††† No, no, no, itís not a joke. Itís just something that I wanted to check out with you to see if you could help me, tell me about that stuff.

A††††††††† I canít remember saying, mmm, who was it?

Q††††††††† What?

A††††††††† Who was the person who touched it?

Q††††††††† Well I really need you to tell me who it was because I.

A††††††††† Is it what youíre going to tell me?

Q††††††††† No, it was, yeah, I guess itís what, itís the, itís the new stuff that I heard that youíd said to Mum since we last talked.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† You told Mum that someone had touched your fan, and, ah, bottom.

A††††††††† Me?

Q††††††††† Bottom and your vagina with.

A††††††††† Did I?

Q††††††††† Yeah, with the, with their finger.

A††††††††† Who was it? Who did I say?

Q††††††††† Well, itís, itís really important for you to tell me who it was.

A††††††††† Um.

Q††††††††† But youíre not remembering?

A††††††††† No, I canít remember.

Q††††††††† Mmm, okay, all right, well, look, um, perhaps what I could also tell you that Iíve heard was, um, that you know when youíve drawn this picture of Mum about at Peterís house, Peter showed the puppyís bottom.

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† And you also said some other things about Peter doing something with the puppyís bottom.

A††††††††† Peter?

Q††††††††† Mmm. You said to Mum that Peter showed the puppyís bottom.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And that you also said that he did something else to the puppyís bottom. Is that right?

A††††††††† Um, he let me pick it up.

Q††††††††† Right, yeah. Whatís his puppy like?

A††††††††† Real cute.

Q††††††††† Is it, whatís its name?

A††††††††† Its nameís, um, Cutie.

Q††††††††† Cutie, is it?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Is that its real name or has it got another name?

A††††††††† Ah, yeah, itís his real name.

Q††††††††† Cutie?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Right.

A††††††††† I like calling it, um, Snuggles.

Q††††††††† Do you?

A††††††††† Because my catís nameís Snuggles.

Q††††††††† Oh is it? Right.

A††††††††† And sheís got a, sheís got a bite on her arm.

Q††††††††† Oh.

A††††††††† And she limps.

Q††††††††† Right.

A††††††††† Like this she goes.

Q††††††††† What made her limp? Oh because of the bite on her arm.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Mmm, so, [T], what, what else did Peter do to the puppyís bottom?

A††††††††† He put his finger in it. Thatís what I forgot. He didnít let me pick it up. He put his finger in it.

Q††††††††† Mm mmm. Did you pick up the puppy anyway?

A††††††††† Yeah, he did, he did let me as well.

Q††††††††† So he put his finger in the puppyís bottom?

A††††††††† Yep. Did I tell you that?

Q††††††††† No.

A††††††††† Oh, okay, well he did.

Q††††††††† He did?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And who was there when he did that?

A††††††††† Um, [female name, K] and [female name].

Q††††††††† And what did he do after that?

A††††††††† Oh, um, he.

Q††††††††† What did he do after he put his finger in the puppyís bottom?

A††††††††† He put it down.

Q††††††††† The puppy.

A††††††††† How come, how come heís crying?

Q††††††††† I donít know. It is a sad face isnít it Ö so, [T], and where was Peterís mum when he was doing that?

A††††††††† Oh, he was, she was at work.

Q††††††††† So was she there or not?

A††††††††† No she was at work.

Q††††††††† How many times have you been to this place?

A††††††††† Ah, just once.

Q††††††††† Okay. That was the time you had a bath, is that right?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† So he put his finger in the puppyís bottom. What did you think about that?

A††††††††† I thought it was yucky and, and I thought it was not nice.

Q††††††††† Not nice. Yeah. What sort of feeling did you get?

A††††††††† Mmm, donít know.

Q††††††††† Mmm. What did he say when he was doing that?

A††††††††† Nothing. He just did this.

Q††††††††† Mmm and so has Peter, um, so heís put his finger in that puppyís bottom, mmm?

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Has Peter put his finger in any other bottoms before or not?

A††††††††† No, I donít, well I donít know. He hasnít put it in my bottom.

Q††††††††† He hasnít put it in your bottom.

A††††††††† Whatís in, whatís that?

Q††††††††† Okay, [T], thatís another baby. Now show me where the, well, okay, we know where bottoms are. So he, you say he hasnít put it in your bottom. Is that right?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Okay, cos, I, cos I guess what Iíve heard is that, um, that you said that Peter did put it in your bottom.

A††††††††† Did he?

Q††††††††† Did you?

A††††††††† Oh yeah.

Q††††††††† Aye?

A††††††††† Did I?

Q††††††††† Yeah?

A††††††††† Oh, yeah.

Q††††††††† So, am I right?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Have I got the right information? Did Peter put his finger in your bottom or not?

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† He did. Where when did that happen?

A††††††††† The same day that I had the bath.

Q††††††††† Mmm and which part of the day?

A††††††††† Afternoon.

Q††††††††† Yeah. Where, whereabouts were you when he did it?

A††††††††† In his house.

Q††††††††† Yeah. Where, whereabouts in the house were you when?

A††††††††† Um, in the dining room.

Q††††††††† Yeah and whereabouts were your clothes when he did that?

A††††††††† My clothes?

Q††††††††† Mmm, when he put his finger in your bottom?

A††††††††† Oh, we were having a bath.

Q††††††††† Oh, I see. Okay.

A††††††††† Oh can I go and look, see Mum.

Q††††††††† Yeah, what, what do you, what are you feeling like now when weíre talking about this?

A††††††††† What do you mean?

Q††††††††† What do you feel like when Iím asking you about this?

A††††††††† I donít feel like anything.

Q††††††††† Mmm. Well, look where, maybe if we, we could see Mum after we finished talking about it, okay?

A††††††††† Okay.

Q††††††††† So you were in the bath when he put his finger in your bottom. Was that, [T], was that before he washed you or after?

A††††††††† Before.

Q††††††††† Right, okay.

A††††††††† No, after.

Q††††††††† After, after?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Okay, so you didnít tell me that before.

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Yeah and what, what stopped you from telling me before?

A††††††††† Cos I couldnít remember then.