The Christchurch Civic Creche Case

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Transcripts of Interviews with child witnesses

Kari Lacebark aged 6,
4th interview recorded 27 Mar 1992

(Names as used in the book "A City Possessed" )



Q††††††††† Okay, right,. Now today what Iíd like us to do is to play with the wee toys down here and, um, I know that youíve been, um, to some places with Peter. Where are all the places that youíve been with him?

A††††††††† Been to the beach, He showed us a big fish and he, and it had a little thing on its back.

Q††††††††† Did it?

A††††††††† And he tried to push us in.

Q††††††††† Whereabouts was that?

A††††††††† Oh it was on a big Ö at the beach.

Q††††††††† Oh, it was a big what?

A††††††††† A big rail on the beach.

Q††††††††† A big what?

A††††††††† A big rail on the beach.

Q††††††††† Oh, a big rail on the beach.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Do you know which beach it was? Woops, itís all right, itís just the clock. Which beach was it that you went to with Peter?

A††††††††† Sumner.

Q††††††††† Right and who went with you?

A††††††††† Just Peter.

Q††††††††† And who else?

A††††††††† Nobody else.

Q††††††††† Just you and, just Ö and Peter at the beach?

A††††††††† Yep and some more kids but I canít remember their names.

Q††††††††† Okay and where were, was this, was this, where were the other teachers?

A††††††††† At the crŤche.

Q††††††††† Oh, right, So who knows you were at the beach?

A††††††††† Ah, I donít know.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† Peter took us Ö Peter hasnít got a flash car

Q††††††††† Hasnít he? What colour car has he got?

A††††††††† Not really good cars in here.

Q††††††††† What colour car has he got?

A††††††††† Um, he has a white one like this.

Q††††††††† Does he? Where does he keep his car?

A††††††††† He keeps it in the garage.

Q††††††††† Which garage?

A††††††††† His own garage. I donít know where his garage is. Now shall we make up a jail for him?

Q††††††††† Make up a jail for Peter?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Well, where else has he taken you to before?

A††††††††† Take us? I think he took us to this place, um, where a big fish, Willowbank, Willowbank.

Q††††††††† Willowbank, yep,. Thatís a good place for kids, isnít it? I havenít been there but I hear it is a good place for kids.

A††††††††† Yep, Iíve been there.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† Itís quite really good.

Q††††††††† Is it?

A††††††††† Um. thereís a lion.

Q††††††††† Ooh.

A††††††††† Donít be scared of it, [female name].

Q††††††††† Okay, itís probably in a cage, is it?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† All things are in cages.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† But not the fish, of course.

Q††††††††† No, because theyíre in the water, arenít they?

A††††††††† Yep, now Iíll just have to get the beds ready and the jail ready and stuff. Should Peter have an empty jail?

Q††††††††† What do you think?

A††††††††† I think he should have a bit of furniture.

Q††††††††† A bit of furniture, okay.

A††††††††† But he was really bad. When will it be decided?

Q††††††††† What?

A††††††††† Um, for Peter to go to jail or not.

Q††††††††† Um, I donít know. Thatís up to [male name]. Okay now Ö um, where else have you been with Peter?

A††††††††† Nowhere else. Just ever go to Willowbank.

Q††††††††† Because, um, I think youíve told that you have been to his house before.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Okay, what Iíd like to do is to make Peterís house?

A††††††††† You make Peterís house and I make my house.

Q††††††††† No, you make, how about we made. I think we made both houses last time, didnít we?

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† Oh can, Pet, I want us to, um, letís take all the furniture out and then we can decide. Hey, I left all my leaf clovers in the post.

Q††††††††† Oh, did you?

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† So, um, who lives in Peterís house?

A††††††††† Oh, he lives by himself.

Q††††††††† Right and does he have some friends?

A††††††††† Um, of course, he does. Yes, lots of friends, bad friends. His family doesnít like him though.

Q††††††††† How do you know that?

A††††††††† Because Mummy telled me.

Q††††††††† Okay so Ö um, what about his bad friends? What sort of people are they? Are they men or women?

A††††††††† Men and women.

Q††††††††† And how do you know heís got bad friends? Have you met his friends before or not?

A††††††††† Yes, I have.

Q††††††††† Where did you meet his friends?

A††††††††† Um, at his house.

Q††††††††† Yeah and what was his friendsí names?

A††††††††† Canít remember.

Q††††††††† Oh and what were they doing when you went there, his friends?

A††††††††† They were all showing the penis and the gina.

Q††††††††† They were showing their penis and vagina?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Okay right now, [K], letís make Peterís house. Show me where that happened, where you saw the penis and the vaginas at Peterís house.

A††††††††† Um, can I put Peter at this wee table.

Q††††††††† Yep.

A††††††††† Oh, letís not give Peter a big house. I donít have all this stuff.

Q††††††††† Okay, well weíll just make Peterís house and then we can make your house afterwards.

A††††††††† Peter does Ö he has a cupboard.

Q††††††††† Yep.

A††††††††† A chair, um, a couch.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† And thatís where the jail could be and this.

Q††††††††† Okay, now just make Peterís house, where you saw his friends doing that stuff.

A††††††††† Theyíre all his friends.

Q††††††††† Okay, what are their names? Do you know the names of his friends?

A††††††††† Yes the girls. One of the girlsí name [female name] and one of the girlsí name [female name]. Two girls and two boys. One boyís name Peter and one of the boys names [male name] and [male name].

Q††††††††† And um Ö

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† When you, whose penis did you see at Peterís house?

A††††††††† [Male name]ís.

Q††††††††† And is he a big man or a boy?

A††††††††† A big man.

Q††††††††† And what was he doing with his penis?

A††††††††† Iíll just sit here. He was just teasing us with it.



[Later in the interview, when the interviewer shows K an anatomically correct doll, it becomes clear that K has never seen pubic hair, but the interviewer was undeterred.]



Q††††††††† Whatís that?

A††††††††† I donít know, that black thing?

Q††††††††† Yeah, whatís the black thing?

A††††††††† I donít know.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† What is it?

Q††††††††† Have you ever seen that before on a?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Near a penis?

A††††††††† No. What is it?

Q††††††††† What do you think it is?

A††††††††† I donít know.

Q††††††††† Do mummies and daddies have that stuff or not?

A††††††††† No, whatís this? Itís all on it. What is it?

Q††††††††† Well, itís like, you know what mummies and daddies have on their penises and vaginas.

A††††††††† My mum and dad donít have one or my mum or my daddies, or [male name].

Q††††††††† Have you seen your mum and dadís, have you seen your dadís penis before?

A††††††††† Yeah, Iím not scared of it.

Q††††††††† No.

A††††††††† Because thatís my dad.

Q††††††††† Right.

A††††††††† Whereís the bottle?

Q††††††††† Here, I donít know. Is it not there?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Here, Iíll take that off for you if you like.

A††††††††† Yes, please.

Q††††††††† Great.

A††††††††† And Iíll get.

Q††††††††† Okay, [K], now look.

A††††††††† Oh, a baby has it.

Q††††††††† Show me with this doll how the man teased you with his penis. What did he do?

A††††††††† Oh, I donít want to do that.

Q††††††††† Just show me.

A††††††††† Like that [indicates with dolls].

Q††††††††† And what was his name?

A††††††††† [Male name] but this is a nice boy, okay.

Q††††††††† So, um, so Peterís done that to you before?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And [male name]ís done that to you before.

A††††††††† Yep, pretend theyíre playing in the bath and they are a little baby, okay.

Q††††††††† How many, has anyone else done that to you before Ö or not?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Okay. What did it feel like when [male name] did it? Not very nice you said.

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† What did it feel like on you?

A††††††††† Not very nice. Now theyíre in the big one.

Q††††††††† Where were [male name]ís clothes when he did that?

A††††††††† Just here.

Q††††††††† Were they on or off?

A††††††††† Off.

Q††††††††† They were off?

A††††††††† Yeah.