The Christchurch Civic Creche Case

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Transcripts of Interviews with child witnesses

Kari Lacebark aged 6, 3rd interview recorded 18 Mar 1992

(Names as used in the book "A City Possessed" )

A††††††††† .... can we have a little break from talking?

Q††††††††† Now thereís just, yeah, weíll have a wee break. Who was the first person you told about him hurting your bottom?

A††††††††† Um, Mummy and Daddy. I said I want to have a break of talking.

Q††††††††† I know, okay, if you, could we have a break and could I just go and talk to [male name] and then I could come back in? Is that all right?

A††††††††† Yep, can I come and see whatís happened?

Q††††††††† When?

A††††††††† On that special TV.

Q††††††††† Oh, on the special TV. Yeah, later on you might be able to or I could stay in here and play with you then. Well, letís have a break cos after weíve had a play, thereís something else I want to talk to you about, okay. What are we going to do here?

A††††††††† Donít know. You could bring the bath out.

Q††††††††† Yep.

A††††††††† And .... that could be a different Ö going to the toilet. This little girl is okay. This little girl, hey, she hasnít got any knickers.

Q††††††††† Oh no, she hasnít. Here you are, hereís some knickers for her. Did they, who was there when that happened to your bottom and your vagina?

A††††††††† Just Peter and me.

Q††††††††† And have you seen that happen to any other kids before or not?

A††††††††† Oh no. How long will we be here for now?

Q††††††††† Weíve been here for 25 minutes.

A††††††††† Thatís pretty long.

Q††††††††† Yeah. Feels like a long time when youíre five doesnít it?

A††††††††† Yeah, I really want to go.

Q††††††††† Okay now.

A††††††††† Can we have some, do some drawing?

Q††††††††† Yeah, what a good idea.

A††††††††† Have you got any felts?

Q††††††††† Yeah, thereís a whole box of felts. Bring your paper doll here.

A††††††††† Ö thereís a whole box of felts.

Q††††††††† Yeah. What are you going to draw. You can draw one there and Iíll draw on here. Put the pens on this side.

A††††††††† You can have crayons.

Q††††††††† Oh, can I?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Oh, okay, you want the whole box to yourself, do you?

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† And you sit over there and Iíll sit here.

A††††††††† Okay. Whatís happened to this pen?

Q††††††††† Itís a pencil isnít it.


Q††††††††† What are we going to draw?

A††††††††† You can draw anything. What are you drawing?

Q††††††††† Iím going to draw a big sun. Is it sunny outside today?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Isnít it?

A††††††††† No, you could draw a cloud.

Q††††††††† What sort of face has my sun got?

A††††††††† Smiley face. Can I have my shoes off?

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† Iím going to have sweaty feet.

Q††††††††† Getting hot, sweaty feet.

A††††††††† Yeah. [Male name] came to our house.

Q††††††††† Did he.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And what did he say?

A††††††††† I was scared of going to jail.

Q††††††††† Were you?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† What made you think you would go to jail?

A††††††††† Oh, should we have a break of talking and drawing?

Q††††††††† Itís hard to talk about sometimes isnít it.

A††††††††† Oh, I want to go home.

Q††††††††† Do you? Okay.

A††††††††† Weíll come tomorrow.

Q††††††††† Well, itís best if we just get all the talking over and done with today.

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Then you donít have to keep coming back. Do you like the mountains?

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† I love the mountains.

A††††††††† Why. Could draw you on the mountains?

Q††††††††† Yes. Shall I draw me on the mountains?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Okay Iíll show you what I do in the mountains.

A††††††††† What. Have you got a husband yet?

Q††††††††† No, no.

A††††††††† Did you used to?

Q††††††††† Oh, yes, once I had one.

A††††††††† Who was that?

Q††††††††† Oh heís gone now.

A††††††††† Whereís he gone to?

Q††††††††† Away. There we are, thatís what I do in the mountains.

A††††††††† Thatís a silver crayon. What do you do?

Q††††††††† Aye?

A††††††††† What do you? Do you walk in the mountains?

Q††††††††† No, canít you tell what Iím doing?

A††††††††† No. Skiing?

Q††††††††† Yeah, thatís me and the mountains.

A††††††††† Thereís my picture.

Q††††††††† And what are you drawing?

A††††††††† Not telling you. Just wait and see.

Q††††††††† Okay, all right, it will be a surprise then.

A††††††††† Yeah. Donít look at it, okay.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† You can draw something else. You can guess now.

Q††††††††† Ah, itís a flower.

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† What is it?

A††††††††† Iím not telling. Iím just going to get it open. I want to come back tomorrow.

Q††††††††† I donít think that I can see you tomorrow though because I havenít got any spaces for you.

A††††††††† Why?

Q††††††††† Iíve got other things to do.

A††††††††† Whoís coming to see you tomorrow?

Q††††††††† Oh, Iíve got some kids to talk to tomorrow. What is that?

A††††††††† I donít, you have to wait and see.

Q††††††††† I have to wait and see. Okay.

A††††††††† Iíve got a crayon look. Iíve got a crayon, see look see, it was in here.

Q††††††††† Was it?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Oh right, crayons are quite fun, arenít they?

A††††††††† Yeah. Ö because I just Ö these ones. Donít look.

Q††††††††† Oh Iím not supposed to be looking. Oh, okay.

A††††††††† You can look if you want.

Q††††††††† Oh, can I?

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† Please tell me what it is. What is that? I canít work out what it is so youíll have to tell me what youíre drawing.

A††††††††† No. Thatís pretty, isnít it.

Q††††††††† Do you think it is?

A††††††††† Yes. You want a Ö can I? Iím going to draw all this space.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† Iíll tell you in a minute, okay.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† You know a minute is later.

Q††††††††† Later than what?

A††††††††† Later than 9 oíclock. Okay, Iíll tell you.

Q††††††††† What?

A††††††††† Itís a castle. Do you like it?

Q††††††††† Yeah and whatís happening inside the castle? Whatís that inside the castle?

A††††††††† Nothing. Itís a flower, itís a little dandelion flower.

Q††††††††† Oh, itís a dandelion and whatís that there, whatís that black bit there?

A††††††††† What? Itís the stalk.

Q††††††††† Oh, I see.

A††††††††† A little fairy.

Q††††††††† Oh, itís a fairy there too.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† Just a fairy here with this funny little Ö

Q††††††††† Is it a good fairy?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† What do the fairies do?

A††††††††† Oh they get, itís a tooth fairy.

Q††††††††† Oh.

A††††††††† Oh, sorry, I need that silver crayon.

Q††††††††† Are there any other fairies?

A††††††††† No, oh yes, thereís a fairy godmother. I have a fairy godmother.

Q††††††††† Oh, do you?

A††††††††† Yeah, she, I have to get another wand.

Q††††††††† Do you? Have you got a wand?

A††††††††† No, itís broken. It wasnít real.

Q††††††††† Wasnít it, did you have one of those glitter ones?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Oh, did it break?

A††††††††† Glass one.

Q††††††††† Oh, a glass one.

A††††††††† Do your little girl have one of those.

Q††††††††† No, but Iím going to get one though. Yes, I know, yeah, my little girl has got one of those.

A††††††††† Where is she? Where does she put it?

Q††††††††† Oh, she just keeps it in her bedroom.

A††††††††† Is she, is she little?

Q††††††††† No.

A††††††††† I want to, I want hers.

Q††††††††† You want what?

A††††††††† Hers.

Q††††††††† You want hers. Oh, youíre going to get your own, arenít you?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Because sheíll want to keep hers.

A††††††††† Does she want hers?

Q††††††††† Mm mmm.

A††††††††† How would she still use it?

Q††††††††† Iím going to get one soon.

A††††††††† Why are you going to get yours?

Q††††††††† Oh, Iím just going to get one.

A††††††††† Iím going to draw a sun. Iím going to draw a cloud.

Q††††††††† Okay, big cloud.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Mm mmm.

A††††††††† Itís a purple cloud. I want to come tomorrow because I want to have my lunch.

Q††††††††† Do you?

A††††††††† I could come another day. Iíve got, Iíve had prick.

Q††††††††† Oh, what did you have a prick for?

A††††††††† Um, they had to test my blood.

Q††††††††† What for?

A††††††††† Because Peter might have been hurting me and might have had sick blood or something.

Q††††††††† Right.

A††††††††† Hurt a little bit.

Q††††††††† Right, so you said Peter might have been hurting you.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Right, did he hurt you or not?

A††††††††† Iím going to draw a big sun too.

Q††††††††† Ö

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† He did.

A††††††††† He hurt me a little bit. My blood was fine.

Q††††††††† Was it? Have you had your tests back.

A††††††††† Yeah, this is a lovely sun.

Q††††††††† What else did the doctor do?

A††††††††† Nothing. He gave me jellybeans.

Q††††††††† What else did the doctor do?

A††††††††† I donít know.

Q††††††††† Did the doctor check anything else on your body?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Just your blood?

A††††††††† Yep. Iím going do a sun up here. Can we share the crayons?

Q††††††††† Mmm.

A††††††††† You can share my felts then.

Q††††††††† Okay, now, look, weíve just about finished our drawing, havenít we?

A††††††††† No, so I can go home.

Q††††††††† Well, thereís just a couple of things that I just need to talk to you about.

A††††††††† Hereís a list at the door.

Q††††††††† Oh, no, Iíve got my list.

A††††††††† Thought it was. I want to play pin the donkey.

Q††††††††† Pin the donkey. We havenít got that here.

A††††††††† We could play pin the elephant.

Q††††††††† Thatís a good game, isnít it? Thatís a game that you can play at parties, isnít it?

A††††††††† Yes.

Q††††††††† Pin the tail on the donkey.

A††††††††† Ö into the cupboard Ö goes and there goes all the dolls.

Q††††††††† What, oh, we donít , no, because theyíre special dolls. Theyíre like these dolls here that I use,. Those are called special dolls.

A††††††††† Are they?

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† Oh, let me go home. I want to go.

Q††††††††† Okay, all right, well we might just have to do that and.

A††††††††† Iíll come back.

Q††††††††† Well Ö your mum said that you only, this would be the last time, didnít she? She told you this would be the last time.

A††††††††† I want to go, okay. I do.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† All right. Well first of all we have to check that out with Mum, okay?

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† That you can come back. Um, itís 24 minutes to 12, to 1.

A††††††††† Come on.

Q††††††††† Okay, Iím just trying to learn to say the time. Itís quite hard sometimes. 24 minutes to 1, okay. Youíve got everything.

A††††††††† Oh, I have to check with Mum first.

Q††††††††† Okay.