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Transcripts of Interviews with child witnesses

Bart Dogwood aged 6, 4th interview recorded 6 Aug 1992

(Names as used in the book "A City Possessed" )

Q          So tell me what you’ve come back to say.

A          Oh, I’ve forgotten some bits.

Q          Yeah but we’ll start with the things you remember first.

A          Um.

Q          What’s the easiest thing to start with, what’s it about?

A          The things Peter’s friends did to me.

Q          The things Peter’s friends did, mm mmm. Whereabouts did Peter’s friends do things to you?

A          They had a circle on the floor and they um … and they all had tins round their necks and there was also, um, a, Marie, Gaye and Jan were at the house. Not Jan, well the lady was another one.

Q          Mm, who’s Marie, Jan and Gaye?

A          They’re people at the crčche and [male name] was there and [male name] and Peter was there and he used to be at the crčche.

Q          So, um, and, and which house are you talking about? Where did that happen?

A          The two-storied house in Hereford Street.

Q          And, um, so when Marie and Jan and Gaye were there, what was happening?

A          Um, they were all dancing around in a circle and, um, me and some other kids were in the middle.

Q          So, what?

A          Not moving … and then they told us to kick each other.

Q          So were you playing a sing-song or Ring a Ring a Rosie or?

A          No … play a game because, um, all the people were in the circle. They already had it drawn on the board and, oh, I know how to draw it anyway.

Q          Do you?

A          Yes and I will.

Q          … some other bits down there so the camera can …

A          What’s that thing on the table there?

Q          That’s the microphone for our, for our voices to go in. And here’s, here’s some pens. Draw me the circle …

A          Mmm.

Q          What colour’s that?

A          Blue … I don’t want the fry, the fry, frying pan for chips.

Q          You don’t want the frying pan. Okay, you can draw me the circle …

A          Oh, well, it was on it was a board.

Q          It was on a board, was it?

A          Yeah, a board like that. And this is the legs holding it up.

Q          So was this like, ah, in a blackboard at crčche, was this, this, you know?

A          No, no, it was, um, a, it was, um, it’s a board and that had, those are the clips there, it had clips to hold the piece of paper on. Ahhh ummmmmm. Then I was drawing on a piece of paper because those were the people and there was people playing guitars. They were there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there and there.

Q          So the crosses on the outside of that circle are the people playing guitars?

A          Yeah.

Q          What sort of people were they playing guitars?

A          Oh, they were Peter’s friends and family. Um, there was … and some of my friends in the middle and then we had to kick each other … and we had turns after that, um, but when, when we finished it, um, Peter came into the middle and done bad things to them cos there was about, ah, God knows, nine kids in the middle.

Q          Can you?

A          And af, and after that they went in the middle and started hurting the kids and if all of them didn’t get a turn, some of the kids would have to have two turns.

Q          Okay.

A          And they and they already had it, um, drawn on the floor like that.

Q          What did they have drawn on the floor?

A          How, how he done the circle.

Q          So on this circle here, on the big circle on the outside.

A          Yeah.

Q          What was round, what was the?

A          The adults were going walking around and the kids were just staying still in the middle there, kicking each other.

Q          Okay, so I could write adults there and whereabouts were the kids.

A          Mmm.

Q          In there so we’ll put the kids. Which kids, could you tell me the names kids.

A          Oh the ones from yesterday, [male name], [male name], [female name].

Q          Mmm.

A          And one no and …

Q          And what?

A          And …

Q          Yeah, okay. Any other girls? There’s [female name] there? Were there any other girls there or not?

A          Oh, yeah, there was except I can’t remember their names.

Q          Okay. So, okay, so, um, and when, when you were having to kick each other in the middle, where was Marie and?

A          Gaye.

Q          Gaye and Jan.

A          And Jan.

Q          Where was?

A          Oh, they were dancing around the circles there.

Q          What sort of clothes did they have on. Did they have their crčche teacher clothes on or something else?


Q          Pardon?

A          They, they had normal clothes on.

Q          What about the, what about the people playing guitars?

A          They had normal clothes on. They all had normal clothes on and the kids were naked in the middle.

Q          So how how.

A          And Marie, Marie, Gaye and Jan pretended, ah, to sex.

Q          Who did she pretend to sex to?

A          Um.

Q          Oh …

A          Jan.

Q          Oh, Marie and Gaye did you say?

A          Yeah, they were going to sex and there was a photo taken and ah.

Q          What does sex mean. What does it mean when they pretend to sex?

A          Oh.

Q          You could get two dolls and show me. Get two, two, get a Marie and a.

A          Ohhhh.

Q          Yeah, get a Marie doll and a Gaye doll and show me what they mean, what you mean by pretend to sex.

A          Ummmm, mmmm, okay.

Q          Oh, which, who’s that. Just get two dolls and show me, two women dolls, and show me how they pretended to sex.

A          Marie.

Q          Yep.

A          Um, Gaye.

Q          Okay.

A          … like, like that.

Q          Did they have their clothes on or?

A          Off.

Q          Who took their clothes off?

A          They did.

Q          And was that? Did they do that inside the circle or somewhere out, outside the circle or somewhere else?

A          They were doing it there.

Q          Inside the circle, is that right?

A          Yeah, about there. It wasn’t about there, that wasn’t where the kids were, it was about there.

Q          So what were the kids doing when Marie and Gaye pretended to sex?

A          Mmm, just, oh, Marie and Gayle were trying to make the kids laugh.

Q          Mmm, what did the kids, what did you feel like when Marie and Gaye did that?

A          Bad, sad and bad.

Q          Any other feelings about it?


Q          And did they say anything to you or not?

A          Mmm no.

Q          So you know when, bef, when you know, did they dance round? Hey, did they dance round the circle before they sexed or after they sexed? Which one did they do first, dancing or sexing?

A          Sexing.

Q          And when they were dancing round.

A          Mmm

Q          Did they have their clothes on or off?

A          On.

Q          Mmm, so was there anyone else dancing round with them or not?

A          When?

Q          Dancing around the circle with them or not?

A          Yeah all the other …

Q          Oh, okay, and where was Peter?

A          He was taking photos with his, um, mother.

Q          Which, whereabouts in Peter’s house did this happen?

A          In the dining room.

Q          What, what else was in the room that, that, that?

A          Well they cleared all the stuff and it was all ready. How to do it, it was already painted on the table.

Q          Wha, what was painted on the table?

A          Um, um, I mean on the floor it was, yeah, so they knew what to do go around.

Q          I see. So what colour paint, was it painted in?

A          White.

Q          And, um, when they were dancing around, what, you know, the people who played the guitars?

A          Yeah.

Q          What’s, what were they playing, what tune were they playing?

A          Ahh, well, they were just playing a tune that I didn’t know the name of.

Q          Do you know, do you remember it, can you can you hum it for me?

A          No. I can’t remember it, all I can remember is they were playing guitars.

Q          Mmm.

A          And they had knives there.

Q          What did they do? Where were, what did they do with the?

A          Then, then they thought they were magic … abracadabra, I’ll bring a knife in my hand and then they brought a knife out of their hand and it was already in there and they pretended they were cowboys.

Q          How did they pretend they were cowboys?


Q          How did, what?

A          White ss, ss, suits all down.

Q          They what.

A          They had white suits all.

Q          What, who had white suits?

A          The people that were playing the guitars, they had white suits. They, while they were doing that they pretended to be a cowboy.

Q          Mm mmm, so the,y they had white suits on. Was that, which ones had white suits?

A          The people that are playing the guitar.

Q          Oh, the guitar, okay. And have you, you know the tune that they were playing on their guitar. Have you, like, have, are there any kids’ tunes that sound like what they were playing? Did it sound familiar, did it sound?

A          It sounded like Baa Baa Black Sheep.

Q          Did it?

A          Yeah.

Q          Is that, do you think it really did or is that something that you?

A          It, I don’t, it, I don’t think it was except it sounded a bit like it.

Q          Mm mmm. So was this just like a game at crčche or something?

A          No, there was kid. What, what was I talking about again?

Q          This, this thing in the circle and that.

A          No, it wasn’t a game at crčche and the kids were in the middle were naked.

Q          Okay, all right, now we’ll just keep going.

A          And they and when they were finished.

Q          … it’s 10 minutes past 3.

A          … um.

Q          Yeah.

A          Everybody were going into the middle and hurting the child, start hurting the children, and if, um, all them, they were getting … children would have to put up to with it twice.

Q          Yeah, okay, so they kicking and then hurting. Now who made?

A          Kicking and punching and hurting.

Q          So who made those kids do, what made the kids do kicking and punching to each other?

A          Cos all the all the people said.

Q          What did they say?

A          Kick and punch yourself or I’ll stab you with this knife.

Q          And what did you feel like when they said that?

A          Well I didn’t, I didn’t feel anything, I didn’t really, ah, I didn’t know what to do.

Q          Mm mmm, so did you kick and punch the other kids or not?

A          Yeah they actually do it to me too.

Q          Right, so show me. Can you sit up for a minute or, yeah, just or tell, okay, so where did you get kicked and who kicked you?

A          … all the kids.

Q          Yeah which ones?

A          Only [male name].

Q          Where did [male name] kick you.

A          Mm, on in here.

Q          Your leg.

A          Mmm.

Q          And did anybody, any other kids, have to kick you or not.

A          No because he, cos, ah, that would be me and that would be [male name] and that would be the other kids. … that be another …

Q          Okay, I might, um, and where did the kids get kicked the most?

A          Um.

Q          That’s a body you’re drawing, isn’t it?

A          Yeah.

Q          Yep and some legs, yeah put a wee.


Q          Put a wee cross with this and show me where the kids got kicked the most.

A          Um.

Q          You have to put the clicker down, yep. What’s the part called?

A          In the balls and in the, in the knee caps there…

Q          So what would the, um, boys, if it was balls, wouldn’t it?

A          Yep, um, if it was the girls it would be in the vagina.

Q          So they, so they had to kick each other in the balls and in the vagina?

A          Yeah.

Q          What did that make them feel like?

A          Sad, horrible.

Q          What did you feel like?

A          Sad.

Q          Yeah and what did your balls feel like?

A          Um they hurt.

Q          How many kicks did you get in your balls?

A          About five.

Q          Were you standing up or sitting down when you got kicked?

A          Standing up. But it’s like I said, that be us in a circle.

Q          Yeah.

A          Standing just kicking each other like that?

Q          Yep.

A          And there’s be one, it would be only about that when we were kicking each other.

Q          Yeah, okay, and how long did you have to kick each other for?

A          Ten minutes.

Q          After you finished kicking each other, what did you feel like?

A          It hurt.

Q          And then what happened? Who first said that, I mean how, what made you stop kicking the children?

A          Then, and then they put us in the oven.

Q          When did they do that?

A          At the house.

Q          Before they hurt you or after they hurt you or on another day?

A          After they hurt you and they pretended to eat us.

Q          Okay, well.

A          Then they said, “If you tell your mum we’ll put you in the oven and we’ll kill you.”

Q          And, um, okay, so let’s just, so the kids had to kick and punch each other cos the people said things to them to make them do that and Marie and Jan and.

A          Gaye.

Q          Gaye were there and Peter and mum were taking photos and the other men?

A          Yeah and the people round there had eyes like that, like that [indicates by pulling corners of eyes to give oriental appearance].

Q          Which people had eyes like that?

A          The people that were Peter’s friends.

Q          Were they the people who were dancing or the people playing guitars?

A          People were dancing and playing guitars.

Q          So how many of them had eyes like that?

A          … some of them.

Q          … or just some of them?

A          Some of them.

Q          Some of them.

A          Yep.

Q          So were some of them like you and me or not?

A          Yeah.

Q          With eyes like what we’ve got?

A          Yep.

Q          Is that right?

A          Yeah.

Q          So some have those sorts of eyes and some have our sorts of eyes. Is that right?

A          Yep.

Q          Mmm, um, what colour skin did the people have?

A          Brown.

Q          What else? Did everybody have brown skin or not?

A          Not everyone.

Q          What colour skin did Ma, did Marie have?

A          White.

Q          How many times were Marie and Jan and Gaye in the circle, how many times?

A          Mmm, oh, about three.

Q          Okay, all right, now when, when adults came into the circle and did hurting, what happened? How did they hurt the kids? How did they hurt you?

A          Um, was always like I said in the past.

Q          Mmm, could you just um tell me what they did?

A          Mmm, they smack your bum and kick you and punch there again.

Q          Mmm, and were your clothes still off or had they put them back on again?

A          So they were still off.

Q          So who took your, how did your clothes get off in the beginning?

A          Um we took them off.

Q          What made you take them off?

A          Cos they said or they would kill us.

Q          And what, where did your clothes go after you took them off?

A          Pardon.

Q          Where did your clothes go?

A          Oh they were outside the circle.

Q          And [B], so the people that were hurting you.

A          Mmm.

Q          Let’s ah, I’ll just get one of these dolls again.


Q          Aye.

A          This is a boy …

Q          Show me whereabouts you got hurt. You need, does the doll need.

A          There … [indicates penis].

Q          Could you call?

A          There and there [indicates posterior and face].

Q          And, ya, so that’s your, what’s this part?

A          Your balls.

Q          The balls, how did your balls get hurt?

A          I mean penis.

Q          Penis, how did your penis get hurt?

A          Um, they put needles up them.

Q          Who put needles up your penis?

A          The um, the um, people when, then, and there was this one, [male name], used to work at the crčche and he was in the circle.

Q          What colour hair did he have?

A          Brownish.

Q          So which one put the needles up your penis?

A          He did. I think it was, his name was [male name] anyway.

Q          Mm mmm. What did the needles feel like when they went up your penis?

A          What did the needle feel like when it went up my penis. Ah, it felt sore, blood came out.

Q          Blood came out. Where did the blood go, [B]?

A          On the floor.

Q          Mm mmm. Did it go anywhere else?

A          No.

Q          And did the blood stay on the floor or not?

A          No they cleaned it up.

Q          Which ones cleaned it up?

A          Um, oh, Peter. When it was all over the people with the guitars did.

Q          Mm mmm.

A          Cos Peter, when he made them the deal.

Q          What was the deal?

A          Ah, it was the people with the gui, the gui, guitars.

Q          Mmm.

A          After they, um, after when they had finished they knew the blood would come out of the floor because they were going to do it in the first place and when it happened Peter said they had, um, they had to clean it up.

Q          And what did the needle look like?

A          It was sharp …

Q          Was it, yeah?


Q          Oh, right.

A          It was sharp, sharp, sharp.

Q          And what sort of needles are they? What, what’s, what those sort needles usually used for?

A          … only dick, oh, um, they usually for sewing up things.

Q          What’s that?

A          … it’s so sharp so … and …

Q          Oh, I see, lovely, it was sharp. And how many, how many, ah, so when [male name] did that.

A          Mmm

Q          What did Marie, who was there when [male name] did that?

A          What do you mean?

Q          Who was there when [male name] put the needles up, which?

A          They were all ss.

Q          All those ones.

A          They were all in the circle and then after that, um, they cleaned up the blo, blood, put, took us back to crčche.

Q          Who took you back to crčche?

A          Well, first we went to the building with the trap door.

Q          First you went to the building with the trap door?

A          Yeah.

Q          And what happened there?

A          All the … fell down the trap door again.

Q          Did anything else happen in that building?

A          Pardon.

Q          Did anything else happen in that building, the trap door building?

A          No, oh, they left us there for half an hour like I said, and this time when we went there, everyone in with them and me, and me and my friends, um, were left there and the kids in the circle was, um [name].

Q          Yeah.

A          Oh, when we got back to crčche it got better, except, um, they cleaned up about an hour later.

Q          They cleaned up what?

A          They cleaned up the blood up on the floor an hour later.

Q          And, [B], so, so were you standing up or lying down or what were you doing when they hurt your penis, when he hurt your penis with the needle?

A          What was I doing when he hurt?

Q          Yeah. Were you standing or sitting or lying or?

A          Standing.

Q          Standing. Cos I guess if someone hurt your penis you’d want to run away, so what stopped you from running away?

A          Cos I was too scared.

Q          So.

A          Much too scared.

Q          So where was and, and one hand would have been, one hand of [male name]’s would have been touching the needle. Where was his other hand.

A          … he was on holding us so we couldn’t run way.

Q          Whereabouts did he hold you?

A          Under there like that [indicates by holding doll under arms].

Q          Okay and did anyone else hold you like that to stop you running away or not?

A          Yep. Peter.

Q          Mmm what did, what were the, the woman doing, what was Jan and Marie and Gaye doing when they were hurting your penis like that?

A          Well they’d they were hurting the penises too and if it wasn’t the penises it would be the girls’ vaginas.

Q          So whose penises got hurt? Which, which boys penises?

A          What do you mean?

Q          Which boys’ penises? All of them or just some of them?

A          All of them.

Q          And what about the girls’ vaginas, all the vaginas or just some of them?

A          Pardon.

Q          All the vaginas or just some of them?

A          Not all of them.

Q          So, who, who, which, who did, which child did Gaye hurt?

A          Umm, all of us.

Q          Which child did Marie hurt?

A          Um, [girl’s name, K].

Q          Anyone else?

A          Anyone else?

Q          Did Marie hurt any other kids penises or?

A          Did Marie hurt any other kids?

Q          Yeah or not?

A          No.



Q          What do you want? You’re going to get the doll are you. Bring it over there, would you, so I can.

A          I want to do something.

Q          What are you going to do?

A          Play with them.

Q          Mmm

A          … going to change the clothes on the dolls.

Q          Okay, turn around with them. Are you going to use those ones over there.

A          Yeah. those are pyjamas things.

Q          And, so, hey.

A          Mmm.

Q          How do you know, um, what, who did Gaye hurt?

A          She hurt, um, [K] and [name].

Q          And how do you know that?

A          Because I saw it.

Q          Mm mmm. Um so, so these, after the kicking and punching and the hurting started, and that was on the kids’ penises and vaginas with needles, did anything else hurt the kids’ penis, did anything else hurt your penis?

A          Did anything else hurt my penis?

Q          Or not?

A          No.

Q          Aye.

A          No.

Q          Just the needles?

A          Mmm, yep.

Q          And. Hey, [B].

A          Mmm.

Q          Did, did any other part of you get hurt in that circle or not?

A          Did any other part of me get hurt in that circle?

Q          … I know that the kids had to hurt each other. But and the adults hurt your penis, did the adult, did the adults hurt any other part or you or not?

A          No.

Q          Hey.

A          No, I feel sick.

Q          You feel sick, do you?

A          I feel like spewing up.

Q          Do you. What’s making you feel sick do you know?

A          Well, that’s why I’m away from school today.

Q          Mmm, have you been sick today yet?

A          Pardon.

Q          Have you been sick today?

A          Um no.

Q          Mmm, where’s the sick feeling?

A          In my tummy.

Q          Oh. So who was the first person you told about [male name].

A          Um, Mum.

Q          Mm mmm. What did [male name] look like?

A          He was tall and he had brown hair.

Q          Mmm.

A          He used to work at crčche.

Q          Mm mmm. How do you know it was the same [male name]?

A          Cos I, I recognised him.

Q          And who was the first person you told about Marie and Gaye and Jan being there?

A          Ah, I told Mum first.

Q          You told Mum first. So, so what stopped you from telling me yesterday?

A          Oh I just remembered today.