The Christchurch Civic Creche Case

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Transcripts of Interviews with child witnesses

Bart Dogwood aged 6, 3rd interview recorded 5 Aug 1992

(Names as used in the book "A City Possessed" )




Q††††††††† And were there any other adults at that building with the library and the trap door?


A††††††††† Yeah, 20 of his friends, Spike and Bolderhead.



Q††††††††† Bolderhead and Spike.


A††††††††† Yeah, but that wasnít their real name, I knew, I know that.



Q††††††††† How did?


A††††††††† Because they were, they were just probably using it.



Q††††††††† How do you know that?


A††††††††† They, well, Bold, I never heard a name called Bolderhead before.



Q††††††††† Mmm, so Ö what did, what sort of clothes did his friends wear?


A††††††††† Oh, black clothes.



Q††††††††† Yeah. What sort of, were they wearing shorts or trousers or what sort of clothes?


A††††††††† They were wearing black pull down with the, with white tie and black shoes.



Q††††††††† Mm hmm. And anything on their heads or not?


A††††††††† Oh, black hats.



Q††††††††† Were they wearing hats or not?


A††††††††† Yep.



Q††††††††† So they were wearing all black with a white tie.


A††††††††† Mmm.



Q††††††††† And how many? There were about 20, you thought, so there were quite a few.


A††††††††† And one of them was scratched fucken shit on their car with a knife, with a knife there and, um, a thing that you scrape things off with.



Q††††††††† Yeah, a scraper.


A††††††††† Yeah.



Q††††††††† What do you use a scraper, what sort of things do you scrape with that thing. Food or paint or?


A††††††††† Oh, you, youís can, youíre síposed Ö scrape putty off.



Q††††††††† Oh, okay.


A††††††††† From the windows Ö



Q††††††††† Yep, so he scraped.


A††††††††† Then he used that and the knife in his hands.



Q††††††††† So what made him write, scratch fucken shit on his car?


A††††††††† I donít know I just saw it on there.



Q††††††††† Mmm, so whoís car was it.


A††††††††† One of Peterís friendís cars, Spike.



Q††††††††† What, what did it look, Spike?


A††††††††† Yeah it was a black car, Toyota Corona.



Q††††††††† A black, a black car.


A††††††††† Yeah and it was a Toyota Corona.



Q††††††††† How do you know it was Toyota Corona?


A††††††††† Because I saw it written down.



Q††††††††† What colour was the inside of the car do you know?


A††††††††† Oh, grey.

Q †††††††† Are you sure about that or?


A††††††††† Yeah, grey, I think it was furry grey.



Q††††††††† Furry grey. And it was black?


A††††††††† Ö



Q††††††††† So where did you go in that car?


A††††††††† Oh, I donít go anywhere, I just saw it.



Q††††††††† Okay, so there was these, these other people with black suits. So were they men or women?


A††††††††† Um, there was women, two women.



Q††††††††† Two women. What did the two women look like, what sort of clothes did they wear?


A††††††††† They were black, they were all in white.



Q††††††††† All in white. And what did they do?


A††††††††† They were all in white with a black tie.



Q††††††††† With a black tie.


A††††††††† They were all in white with a black tie.



Q††††††††† And what did they do?


A††††††††† What did they do?



Q††††††††† The women.


A††††††††† The two women, oh, oh, well, the bad, probably, the bad things that other children that they didnít do any bad things to me.



Q††††††††† Okay. So did they say anything to the children or not? Did they say anything to you?


A††††††††† No, because they didnít hurt me Ö Peter tried to threaten me heíd drop me down a ladder.



Q††††††††† Yeah, you told me that one yesterday.


A††††††††† Yeah.



Q††††††††† Yeah, so, um, so there were other people dressed in black and white clothes at this building.


A††††††††† Yeah.



Q††††††††† And one of them was called Spike and and Spike had a black car. What were the people doing there?


A††††††††† Um, they were hurting kids.



Q††††††††† What did they do to hurt kids?


A††††††††† I donít know. They were hurting kids except I donít know what they did because I wasnít around.



Q††††††††† Right.


A††††††††† Thereís two things for this Ö in that, that.



Q††††††††† Yeah.


A††††††††† Ö and then Ö [playing with toys].



Q††††††††† Yeah, then itís cooked. Hey Ö


A††††††††† Mmm.



Q††††††††† When you were at this building with the trap door did you get hurt there or not?


A††††††††† Yep.



Q††††††††† What hurt, who hurt you there?


A††††††††† Oh, Peter.



Q††††††††† Mmm, did anybody else hurt you there?


A††††††††† Did anybody else hurt me there?



Q††††††††† At the at the trap door building.


A††††††††† Oh, someoneís already down at the trap door.



Q††††††††† Who was that?


A††††††††† Oh, one woman.



Q††††††††† What was she doing?


A††††††††† She was trying to kick me.



Q††††††††† Where did she kick?


A††††††††† Kick and punch me? Yeah she Ö me and she did.



Q††††††††† She what?


A††††††††† She was trying to kick and punch me.



Q††††††††† Mmm and, a, so, um, so Ö Um, what, what did Peter do to hurt you at the trap door building? Which room did he hurt you in?


A††††††††† Which room did he hurt me? Um, why, one of the rooms where no one was in on the second floor.



Q††††††††† What did he do to you, to hurt you?


A††††††††† What did he do to hurt me? Oh, well, he kicked me and punched me and stuck a, stuck a, stuck a sharp stick up my bum.



Q††††††††† Which part of your bum did the stick go?


A††††††††† In the, the poos hole.



Q††††††††† What did it feel like on your poo hole?


A††††††††† It feeled, made it bleed.



Q††††††††† Where did the blood go?


A††††††††† On the floor and he done and he cleaned it up and he done that five times and he stuck a burning piece of paper up my bum five times so that means it bleed, um, 10 times.



Q††††††††† And who was there when he stuck a stick up your bum?


A††††††††† Um, his mother. No, his friend stuck this, um, um, burning paper and Peter.


Q††††††††† Who did the burning paper?


A††††††††† Um, his friends and he, and so his friends, on the sharp stick and the burning paper, and Peter and his mum were taking photos and while my burn was bleeding they were laughing.



Q††††††††† What did you feel like?


A††††††††† Just sad because it wasnít funny at all.



Q††††††††† Did, did the blood go anywhere else or not?


A††††††††† No Ö on the flippen floor Ö



Q††††††††† There were, there what?


A††††††††† There were Ö



Q††††††††† Oh, okay, what did the stick look like?


A††††††††† Oh, it was a sharp stick, about as sharp as a knife.



Q††††††††† Where did it come from?


A††††††††† Pardon.



Q††††††††† Where did the stick come from?


A††††††††† It was in some like a treasure box with all the paper and it was, it was like it was a treasure box and, um, that they made out of wood and they, and they put about, oh, God knows, 20 pieces of paper in that box and they put a lighter and, um, about five sharp sticks and then they shut the thing and locked it.

Ö



Q††††††††† Did anything else make your bum bleed or not?


A††††††††† Did anything else made my bum bleed? Only the burning paper and the stick.



Q††††††††† Only the burning paper and the stick made your bum Ö so did Mummy know that your bum had been bleeding or not?


A††††††††† Yeah, Iíve already told her.



Q††††††††† Right.


A††††††††† And they tied me up.



Q††††††††† They tied you up. Where did, when, would they tie you up.


A††††††††† In the dark room in the building.



Q††††††††† Mmm and who tied you up?


A††††††††† Peter.



Q††††††††† What?


A††††††††† Peter and he made me eat some pills and I went to the hospital in the restaurant.



Q††††††††† Yeah, what happened after you ate the pills?


A††††††††† I was asleep.



Q††††††††† Mmm and then what happened then?


A††††††††† So then, what happened then? Um, then what happened? I just feel asleep and I woke up and I felt all tired.



Q††††††††† Right, so when you woke up, where, whereabouts were you when you woke up?


A††††††††† Whereabouts was I when I woke up? Ö They tied me up on the bed like that.



Q††††††††† Mmm. Whereabouts were you when you woke up?


A††††††††† Ah, I was still against Ö and the other time I was still lying on the bed tied up and then.



Q††††††††† I see.


A††††††††† And he even tried to tip the bed over Ö



Q††††††††† Okay and come back over here cos I need to know exactly what happened. When, um, when he tied you up?


A††††††††† Mmm.



Q††††††††† You were in the dark room. What did he tie you up to?


A††††††††† A log.



Q††††††††† And what happened after he tied you up?


A††††††††† He left me there for half an hour and went to his motherís house on the hill.



Q††††††††† Was there, were there other kids there or not when he tied you up, where were they?


A††††††††† Yep [name] and [name] and [name] were tied up.



Q††††††††† Were they?


A††††††††† [Name] too.



Q††††††††† At the same time or at different times?


A††††††††† Same time.



Q††††††††† So you were, were you all tied up together in the same room?


A††††††††† Yep.


Q †††††††† Is that right?


A††††††††† Yep, ah ha.



Q††††††††† And did anything happen?


A††††††††† Ö



Q††††††††† What did you feel like when you were tied up?


A††††††††† What did I feel like when I was tied up? I thought that they would never come back.



Q††††††††† Mm hmm and did.


A††††††††† To tell the truth.



Q††††††††† Did you kids, what did you kids, did you kids talk to each other when you were tied up or not?


A††††††††† They were, we were just lying, yeah we talked.



Q††††††††† What did you say?


A††††††††† Oh, tell Peterís dumb.



Q††††††††† Mm hmm.


A††††††††† And how we donít like, no not that Peterís dumb, well how we donít like him.

Ö



Q††††††††† And, ah, so you know when you had to take pills and you went to a hospital and a restaurant? Whereabouts did you take the pills?


A††††††††† In my mouth.



Q††††††††† And who gave them to you to put in your mouth?


A††††††††† Peterís mum.



Q††††††††† Where did she get them from?


A††††††††† She probably brought them from a shop.



Q††††††††† What did the pills taste like?


A††††††††† Yucky.



Q††††††††† Yeah what colour, what did they come out of?


A††††††††† A packet.



Q††††††††† And what?


A††††††††† I canít I didnít read the packet, it looked like.



Q††††††††† Right.


A††††††††† That it was, it was one of those packets, it would be in places Ö and there was little round holes that you have to poke in these pills and that.



Q††††††††† Oh okay and the pills?


A††††††††† One of those ones, mmm, I donít know, she got them from, she probably got them from the shop but I just saw her take, she had them already cos I just saw her take them out of her bag.



Q††††††††† Okay, and, um, what would those pills, has, has, has Peterís mother ever given you anything else to take before or not?


A††††††††† Has Peterís mother ever given us anything else to take?



Q††††††††† To put in your mouth.


A††††††††† Oh, poisonous drug.



Q††††††††† A poisonous drug?


A††††††††† And that was a poisonous drink. She even tried to make us get drunk on beer, tried to make us drink lots and lots of beer.



Q††††††††† Mmm. Whereabouts did she make you do, try and make you do that?


A††††††††† At Peterís friendís house, at his drawing house.



Q††††††††† Mm hmm and, um, ah, you know what drugs are. Well, theyíre poisonous things, arenít they?


A††††††††† Mmm drugs can make you sick.



Q††††††††† Yeah.


A††††††††† Cos if you drink them youíll get drunk is a bit like drugs.



Q††††††††† And, and how else do people give drugs?


A††††††††† Hey, this can be a horse.



Q††††††††† Yeah. Did, um, you know how the, he had a sharp stick up your bum.


A††††††††† Yeah.



Q††††††††† Could be a horse, couldnít he. This could be a big horse. Well you know how that sharp stick went up your bum? Have you had any more pointy things on your skin before or not? Have you had any more sharp things go on your skin before or not?


A††††††††† Um, only pointy, pointy things like this, but I donít know what theyíre for. Theyíre pointy like this, except I donít know what theyíre called.



Q††††††††† What was that for?


A††††††††† Oh, it was to make you sick probably.



Q††††††††† Who gave you that? What, what are you talking about?


A††††††††† Peter gave me a, he even tried to stick a ladder up my bum.



Q††††††††† And did that really happen or not?


A††††††††† No.



Q††††††††† It didnít really happen?


A††††††††† I didnít want to. Hey, this, this could be some bouncing on, um, um, one that itís tale like a reading a storyÖ



Q††††††††† Yeah now have you ever been to hospital before?


A††††††††† Yeah, but, yeah, but thatís for other things.



Q††††††††† Right.


A††††††††† Ö



Q††††††††† So what happened when you went to hospital with Peter, what did you go there for?


A††††††††† We went in a different room and he just hurt me.



Q††††††††† What did he do to you?


A††††††††† He got some other pills that you take when youíre not sick but when youíre sitting just he just made us eat them.



Q††††††††† Mmm and where did that hurt you? How did that hurt you, eating the pills?


A††††††††† How did it hurt me?



Q††††††††† Yeah how did that hurt you?


A††††††††† Well, it hurt me a lot. It hurt me inside and it hurt my throat because it was quite small, it was a, was naughty drug.



Q††††††††† Has, has Peter given you any other things that are naughty? Heís given you pills, he, is he, umm, any other things that have made you feel sleepy?


A††††††††† Any other things that have made?



Q††††††††† Heís given you pills and Ö ?


A††††††††† Oh, well, he, he put a needle in my hand.



Q††††††††† Where did he do that?


A††††††††† In that hospital.



Q††††††††† Show me how he did that.


A††††††††† Well he just went like that. Say, say it thatís needle and he went like that.



Q††††††††† Who did that to you?


A††††††††† Um, Peter would just went like that.



Q††††††††† Mmm. How many needles did he put in your hands? How many times did he do that to you?


A††††††††† Oh about twice.



Q††††††††† And where did he get the needle from?


A††††††††† Where did he get the needle from? Oh he just had a needle.



Q††††††††† Did someone at the hosp?


A††††††††† Cos a man gave it to him probably stole it.



Q††††††††† And wa, where, which room did the needle go into your hand?


A††††††††† There was, there wasnít Ö it happened at Peterís house.



Q††††††††† Oh, it happened at Peterís house, the needle in your hand?


A††††††††† Yeah Ö just twoÖ



Q††††††††† And what came out of the needle?


A††††††††† Um, I couldnít really see because there was things stuck in me.



Q††††††††† What colour was it?


A††††††††† Um, wha, yes, it made me go to sleep.



Q††††††††† Did it?


A††††††††† Yep, cos he put it in my hand and then it made me go to sleep.



Q††††††††† And has any other, what did it feel like on your hand, the needle?


A††††††††† It felt, it hurt when he was putting it in and then he put the lights off and then he put the needle Ö



Q††††††††† Yeah.


A††††††††† And then he took the needle out.



Q††††††††† And did any other kids have a needle in their hand or not?


A††††††††† Yeah.



Q††††††††† How do you know?


A††††††††† Cos I saw them.



Q††††††††† Mmm, who did you see him do it to?


A††††††††† [Male name] and [male name].



Q††††††††† Anyone else?


A††††††††† [Male name] and the other one.



Q††††††††† Yeah.


A††††††††† The other one what.



Q††††††††† [Male name] and [male name], a girl or boy?


A††††††††† And [female name], thatís the one I was trying to think of.



Q††††††††† Right.


A††††††††† I couldnít remember her name.



Q††††††††† Okay. So how many times did you see Peter put needles in kidsí hands?


A††††††††† How many times did I see Peter put needles in kids? Well about twice?



Q††††††††† Mm hmm, same as what happened to you about, is that right?


A††††††††† Yep.



Q††††††††† And who else was there when he put a needle in your hand? Any big people there or not?


A††††††††† Yeah, his friends look took photos and laughing as usual.

Ö



Q††††††††† So whose vaginas have you seen before.


A††††††††† Iíve seen Mumís when sheís getting changed.



Q††††††††† Yeah.


A††††††††† I quite often see hers when sheís getting changed.



Q††††††††† When sheís getting changed, yeah. Have you seen any other big womanís vaginas before?


A††††††††† Oh, yeah, two of the ladies, ones that were there.



Q††††††††† What were they doing with their vagina?


A††††††††† Oh they were just pulled their pants down to show us for some stupid reason.



Q††††††††† And, um, when they showed, what did they do after they had showed you, what did they show you they could do with their vagina?


A††††††††† Clever tricks.



Q††††††††† Clever tricks?


A††††††††† Yeah.



Q††††††††† What did they, what were the clever tricks?


A††††††††† Oh tricks that I canít remember.



Q††††††††† Could you show me with the doll? Get this doll over here. Show me with this doll what they, the tricks they did with their vaginas.


A††††††††† There they, oh it wasnít really tricks, they smack it, they punch it.



Q††††††††† Who, who?


A††††††††† They got kick it. They could kick it like that, it was quite amazing. They were going to use it, you could to, they could go like that.



Q††††††††† Right.


A††††††††† Ö



Q††††††††† Mm hmm. What what col, what did their vaginaís look like?


A††††††††† What?



Q††††††††† The two women.


A††††††††† Oh like that.



Q††††††††† Yeah.


A††††††††† It was like a big lion, like.