The Christchurch Civic Creche Case

Home Page

Toddler Testimonies Main Page†††††† ††Transcripts of Interviews †††††††††††Analysis of Interviews

Transcripts of Interviews with child witnesses

Bart Dogwood aged 6, 2nd interview recorded 4 Aug 1992

(Names as used in the book "A City Possessed" )

A††††††††† He put his penis up my bum.

Q††††††††† What did that make your bum feel like?

A††††††††† What do you mean?

Q††††††††† What did your bum feel like when you [sic] put his penis up your bum?

A††††††††† Nnnn, ah, what do you mean by?

Q††††††††† What did it feel like? Did you know did it feel?

A††††††††† It felt ticklish.

Q††††††††† Felt ticklish, mm hmm. So when he put his penis up your bum, where were you, which building were you in?

A††††††††† In his house.

Q††††††††† Which part of his house?

A††††††††† Um, bathroom.

Q††††††††† Was that, were you in the bath or somewhere else?

A††††††††† I was just standing in the bathroom Ö in the bath.

Q††††††††† Looking in the bath, did you say?

A††††††††† No, I was just standing near the bath when he did it to me.

Q††††††††† In the, near the, standing near the bath. And was there anyone else there when you [sic] did that to your bum with his penis?

A††††††††† Mmm, no.

Q††††††††† How many times did he do that to your bum with his penis?

A††††††††† Um about twice.

Q††††††††† And your bum felt tickly?

A††††††††† Yeah, except it wasnít really to make it feel ticklish.

Q††††††††† It wasnít what?

A††††††††† It wasnít really to make it feel ticklish.

Q††††††††† What was it really to make it feel like?

A††††††††† Feel bad. And to make you feel sad. My eyes are getting sore because of the light.

Q††††††††† Mmm. Did it make you feel bad and sad or not?

A††††††††† Um.

Q††††††††† Ö a hanky?

A††††††††† Bad and sad, yeah, bad, sad and ticklish.

Q††††††††† Did you get any other feelings when he did that to your bum with his penis?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† So when he did that to your bum?

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Um, whereabouts were your clothes?

A††††††††† He just pulled my pants down.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm. What about your knickers?

A††††††††† Yeah, course he pulled them down too.

Q††††††††† And what about his clothes, whereabouts were his clothes?

A††††††††† Whereabouts were his clothes?

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† Um, oh, he just pulled his pants down and his knickers.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm. So could you choose, I need you to Ö choose a doll to be Peter and one to be Ö You do that and Iíll get a bath. Thereís not many there to choose from are there really. Just choose a big person or just choose a doll to be Ö and a doll to be Peter and which ones will be the best one.

A††††††††† Is that a girl.

Q††††††††† Well no it doesnít have to be, cos girls, girls wear trousers too Ö

A††††††††† Oh ah Ö

Q††††††††† What about this?

A††††††††† What about this? Thatís a baby. No, I donít think, she looks ugly. Mmm.

Q††††††††† Choose one to be Peter.

A††††††††† He has glasses.

Q††††††††† Okay and one to be [name]. How about that one?

A††††††††† Ah, in the dick.

Q††††††††† Okay, now bring the dolls up here and what else was in Peterís bathroom?

A††††††††† Mmm, water.

Q††††††††† Hey.

A††††††††† Water.

Q††††††††† Water, yeah. Weíll just have to, we canít put water in there at the moment. What else?

A††††††††† I know cos it was all, it will all fall out the hole.

Q††††††††† Yeah, and what else was in the bathroom?

A††††††††† Sink.

Q††††††††† A sink. Show me where, show me how his bathroom was.

A††††††††† And there was, there would be, the bath would be there or it could be there?

Q††††††††† Mm hmm, so show me how he did that to your bum with his penis.

A††††††††† Um, he, he wonít stand up.

Q††††††††† No, okay, well, Iíll hold him and you show me where you were.

A††††††††† He went Ö

Q††††††††† No.

A††††††††† I was, um, like that bending over and he was, um, putting this in there like that.

Q††††††††† Right, so you were standing bending over?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Was he standing up or kneeling or sitting?

A††††††††† Um, he was ss, kneeling, standing up.

Q††††††††† Right and he was behind you and his penis was going, um. Now when his penis did that to your bum was it, it felt tickly, was his body staying still or was it moving?

A††††††††† It was staying still.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm, so what was making the tickly feeling?

A††††††††† I thought, oh it just felt ticklish.

Q††††††††† Yeah and whereabouts were his hands when he was doing that to your bum with his penis, what were his hands?

A††††††††† He was holding his penis in there.

Q††††††††† Oh, okay, so did it go on your bum or in your bum?

A††††††††† In, in my bum.

Q††††††††† In your bum. And did he do anything to your bum before that or not?

A††††††††† Did he do anything to my bum before that?

Q††††††††† Mmm.

A††††††††† Um, oh, well, he just said bad words to me.

Q††††††††† Okay, right.

A††††††††† Like youíre a fucken arsehole.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm. And so after he did that to your bum with his penis.

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† What happened after when, after that, what happened when he finished doing that?

A††††††††† What happened when he had finished doing that?

Q††††††††† Doing that, putting his penis in your bum.

A††††††††† Oh he took us back to crŤche. He said, oh, yeah, we had a good walk.


A††††††††† Yeah and there was already about two or three at the house waiting.

Q††††††††† Two or three kids or adults?

A††††††††† Adults.

Q††††††††† Were they men or women?

A††††††††† Men.

Q††††††††† Any women ever there or not.

A††††††††† Not that I know?

Q††††††††† Any women ever take you there or not?

A††††††††† I Ö

Q††††††††† Right and what did the other men do at Peterís place. Weíll just be very careful with that clock so we donít bump it. Ah, it says 20 past 4. Okay, just come away from there Ö um what did the other men do at Peterís place?

A††††††††† They were hurting other children.

Q††††††††† How did they do that?

A††††††††† I donít know cos I wasnít with the other children.

Q††††††††† What, what made you think they were hurting other children?

A††††††††† Cos they went into separate rooms.

Q††††††††† Which children?

A††††††††† They put my friend [male name].

Q††††††††† Mmm. Any other children there?

A††††††††† Any other children there?

Q††††††††† Mmm.

A††††††††† Um, I, there probably was but I canít remember.

Q††††††††† Okay, were were, [male name]ís a boy isnít he, yeah?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† So there, were there any other girls there, were, were there any other boys there or not?

A††††††††† Any other boys?

Q††††††††† Yeah at Peterís. Well bring it back here and we can do one Ö

A††††††††† Donít like that one, this oneís the best.

Q††††††††† Yep, careful of that clock wonít you, woops, donít want you to kick it. Um, were there any other. Could you please turn round and face this way and then I could see your face. Thatís good. Um Ö were there any other boys there, any other boy kids?

A††††††††† Um, no, not that I know of.

Q††††††††† Any other girls there, any girls there?

A††††††††† No I canít, I canít remember all of them.

Q††††††††† Right, which ones do you remember?

A††††††††† I can remember [male name].

Q††††††††† Just [male name] okay. And, um, so did, so thatís, um, Peter put his penis up your bum, maa, he made you eat poos?

A††††††††† Yeah and he said bad things to me.

Q††††††††† And he said bad things to you?

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Now Peterís penis went up your bum.

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Show me whereabouts the bum is on the doll.

A††††††††† Ö is this a girl or a boy?

Q††††††††† Iím not sure. It looks like a girl though, doesnít it, with the dress. So there and what are bums for?

A††††††††† Um, for doing poos out.

Q††††††††† Yep and whereabouts would the?

A††††††††† It is a girl.

Q††††††††† Itís a girl, is it. So if this was a boy where would the penis be?

A††††††††† Ah, up there.

Q††††††††† Yeah and what are penises for.

A††††††††† Doing wees out of.

Q††††††††† Yeah. So, um Ö Peterís penis, what are you doing, making the doll wake up? Can I just use this to help us? Peterís penis went up your bum here.

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Did Peterís penis go anywhere else on your body or not?

A††††††††† Nnn.

Q††††††††† Mmm.

A††††††††† Na.

Q††††††††† And when he did, when you had to hold his penis?

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† White stuff came out.

A††††††††† White sticky stuff.

Q††††††††† White sticky stuff.

A††††††††† Ah, um, things when you have sex.

Q††††††††† Mmm, how do you know about that?

A††††††††† Um, I just do cos Mum and Dad have it.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† So thatís what, and thatís what makes the babies.

Q††††††††† Yeah, so has anyone else ever got you to hold their penis before till the sticky stuff came out, no?

A††††††††† No only Peter.

Q††††††††† Only Peter.

A††††††††† One of his friends might of.

Q††††††††† Which friend?

A††††††††† Oh well itís one that I canít remember his name or what he looks like or they all had dark blacky brownyish hair.

Q††††††††† Did they. And he might have, so did, did he get, did, did one of Peterís friends make you hold his penis or not?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† But you think he might have. Is that right?

A††††††††† He might have done it to other children.

Q††††††††† Oh, he might have done it to other children.

A††††††††† Look thereís another sink again.

Q††††††††† And does anyone else, ever take Peter, have you ever, so have you ever seen anyoneís else hold Peterís penis before or not.

A††††††††† No Ö

Q††††††††† What are you making.

A††††††††† I just Ö

Q††††††††† Ö the sinks out. And, um, you know how you said Peterís penis went up your bum?

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† And it happened in the bathroom. Where did it happen the other time?

A††††††††† Same place.

Q††††††††† In the bathroom. So how many times in the bathroom?

A††††††††† About twice.

Q††††††††† And has anyone else ever done that to your bum with their penis before?

A††††††††† No.


Q††††††††† Tell me some more things about Peterís house. What else happened there?

A††††††††† Oh, nothing much, not any more, mainly those things.

Q††††††††† And, um, did, um, yes, did any, did any of those other men do bad things like Peter did or not?

A††††††††† Ö

Q††††††††† Pardon.

A††††††††† They done the same things.

Q††††††††† Who to?

A††††††††† Other children.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm, did they do, did any of them do the same things to you or not?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Which one?

A††††††††† Um I think it was [male name].

Q††††††††† And what did he do to you?

A††††††††† He done hurt me the same way as Peter.

Q††††††††† Whereabouts did he hurt you?

A††††††††† Um, same places.

Q††††††††† Which, which place? Show me on your body where that was.

A††††††††† No, Iíll show you on here.

Q††††††††† Oh, yeah, thatís fine, you can do that, itís not a problem.

A††††††††† Oh, um, in there and [indicates genital area on doll].

Q††††††††† Could you call out the names when you point to it?

A††††††††† And there [indicates posterior of doll].

Q††††††††† Whatís that called?

A††††††††† We know what itís called.

Q††††††††† Down there, under the pants, yep.

A††††††††† Yep, there.

Q††††††††† And what did he hurt your bum with, what did [male name] hurt your bum with?

A††††††††† Um, his hand and Peterís fucken bum as well, just smacked my bum heaps of times and wobble my penis heaps of times.

Q††††††††† Yep. And where else did [male name] hurt you? He hurt you on your bum?

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† What did, what did [male name] hurt your bum with?

A††††††††† His hand.

Q††††††††† Anything else? Did any other part of [male name] hurt your bum?

A††††††††† His penis. Whatís this, whatís this meant to be?

Q††††††††† I think thatís meant to be a person.

A††††††††† What, you can make a?

Q††††††††† Hey, what sort of person was [male name]? Was he an old person or a person like Peter or a?

A††††††††† Oh, he was a young person like [male name] is except he has a few whiskers and then he was a bit bald.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm. What colour hair?

A††††††††† Ooh, all of them had, ah, darkish, um.

Q††††††††† Darkish blacky hair?

A††††††††† Black-brown.

Q††††††††† Yeah, so when this man [male name] hurt your bum, whereabouts did that happen?

A††††††††† Whereabouts did it happen?

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† When he hurt my bum?

Q††††††††† Yeah when [male name] did.

A††††††††† Um, he did it at the two-storied house with the ladder.

Q††††††††† Yeah and which, whereabouts in the house did he do that?

A††††††††† In one of the bedrooms.

Q††††††††† And where was Peter?

A††††††††† Was it, wasnít, um, Peterís house, it was one of his friends.

Q††††††††† So was that a different house where Peter?

A††††††††† Peter didnít live there.

Q††††††††† Oh, okay, but it, is it the same house that Peter hurt your bum in?

A††††††††† Same house that Peter hurt my bum in.

Q††††††††† Peter hurt?

A††††††††† Yeah, yeah.

Q††††††††† Peter hurt your bum in the bathroom, aye?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† And?

A††††††††† And that was the same house.

Q††††††††† As where [male name] hurt your bum in the bedroom. And how many times did [male name] do that to you bum with his penis?

A††††††††† Lots.

Q††††††††† Where was Peter when [male name] did that?

A††††††††† He was doing another children. Hey, this is a real mirror.

Q††††††††† Yeah it is, a real mirror. Whatís that?

A††††††††† Me, some of it.

Q††††††††† Thereís a wee, um.

A††††††††† That can be [male name]ís.

Q††††††††† A wee seat to go in front of the mirror maybe.

A††††††††† Now it would look dumb.

Q††††††††† Does it, doesnít it fit. Okay so when [male name] hurt your bum, whereabouts were your clothes?

A††††††††† When [male name] hurt bum whereabouts were my clothes? I still had my pants on all the time, yeah. The only time I got all my clothes off was in the bath.

Q††††††††† Okay and whereabouts were [male name]ís clothes?

A††††††††† And he pulled his pants down.

Q††††††††† He pulled his pants down.

A††††††††† And thatís all.

Q††††††††† And whereabouts?

A††††††††† He only wanted to have a bath with me, I think, and thatís the only time when any of them pulled pants down on me.

Q††††††††† Pulled your pants down or took all your clothes off?

A††††††††† Took, thatís when I had, um, a bath with Peter, thatís the only one with me, thatís the only one that took all his clothes off.

Q††††††††† So when [male name] did that to your bum in the bedroom, what did, how did his penis hurt your bum?

A††††††††† How did his penis hurt my bum?

Q††††††††† Mmm, what did it do to hurt it?

A††††††††† Oh, well, it just hurt it. It didnít really hurt it, it hurt me inside.

Q††††††††† Oh, okay, so did his penis, ah, show me what his penis did to your bum.

A††††††††† What his penis did to my bum?

Q††††††††† Yeah, you can use this pen Ö

A††††††††† Well, he sticked his penis in there [indicates by putting pen against dollís posterior].

Q††††††††† Right, so.

A††††††††† Like that.

Q††††††††† Did that go in the poo hole or just in the crack?

A††††††††† In the crack.

Q††††††††† What about Peterís, did his go in the poo hole or the crack?

A††††††††† The crack.

Q††††††††† And it didnít really hurt your bum but it hurt you inside?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† What did it make your bum feel like then when [male name] did it?

A††††††††† It felt bad.

Q††††††††† It felt bad, yeah. Um and whereabouts in the bedroom did that happen?

A††††††††† Mmm, whereabouts in the bedroom did that happen. Well it was near the bed.

Q††††††††† Was it on the bed or on the floor?

A††††††††† The curtains were pulled so no one could see.

Q††††††††† Who pulled the curtains?

A††††††††† Mmm, I donít know. When I got there they were already closed.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† With the light on.

Q††††††††† The light was on. And was that, did it happen on the bed or on the floor.

A††††††††† It, um, happened on the floor.

Q††††††††† And how did and did any other, has anyone else thatís, has anyone else done that to your bum, put their penis on your bum before or not?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† So thatís Peter and [male name].

A††††††††† And, um, and three other guys and one of them was old.

Q††††††††† Three other guys put their penis on your bum?

A††††††††† Yeah and one of those three guys were old.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† Um.

Q††††††††† How many times did it happen altogether?

A††††††††† How many times did it happen? I want to go to the loo.

Q††††††††† Do you? Can you hang on or do we need to go now?

A††††††††† Need to go now.

Q††††††††† Okay, Iíll take you to the toilet. Itís 4.35.

Q††††††††† Okay 4.38. Um, right, now we were just talking about, um, [male name] in the bedroom putting his penis on your bottom, bum. Now where, where was Peter when, when this was happening?

A††††††††† Um, he was watching.

Q††††††††† When, when you were, um, when [male name] was putting his penis.

A††††††††† He had a camera in his hand taking photos.

Q††††††††† Who had a camera in his hand?

A††††††††† Peter.

Q††††††††† Peter had a camera.

A††††††††† Mmm and he took photos.

Q††††††††† What did he take photos of.

A††††††††† All the na, all the nasty things that [male name] did.

Q††††††††† What, which thing?

A††††††††† And then, and they, and then he said the swear words and he did all those bad things. Well, while he was doing it he was laughing.

Q††††††††† He was laughing. So you know when he took photos?

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† Which nasty things did he take photos of?

A††††††††† All the, of all the nasty things that happened like, um, um, like when he said all the swear words and how his, um, white stuff got on the floor that was at crŤche.

Q††††††††† Did he take photos of that or not?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† What else did he take photos of?

A††††††††† Um, he took photos when he smacked my bum. He done that heaps of times and he said youíre a fucken arsehole and so is your family and then he said Iíll turn and Iíll get your brothers and Iíll fucken bury them and then theyíll be the end of Ö because youíre a fucken arseholes.

Q††††††††† So before you said that Peter was watching and he took photos.

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Of you?

A††††††††† Well, at, at crŤche he said, well, he just like I said, then, well, he said that at crŤche and I was too afraid to tell.

Q††††††††† Mmm.

A††††††††† Hey, Iíll tell you a joke that you do to people when theyíre annoying you. You go like that and itís cracking an egg like that.

Q††††††††† Oh I know that one, and then you go like this and it feels like the egg is running down your head.

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Who else, did anyone else take photos of you or not?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† And what sort of camera was it?

A††††††††† Um, it was the normal camera.

Q††††††††† Yeah, was it a camera like my camera or was it a different one?

A††††††††† It was, it was a camera like, um, it was normal camera.

Q††††††††† Was it a camera that you go to click or was it?

A††††††††† Yeah, it was one of those, so I made a camera today at home.

Q††††††††† Did you?

A††††††††† Yeah, itís gone with my friend.

Q††††††††† Mmm.

A††††††††† I made him, I threatened himÖ

Q††††††††† You threatened him to help you?

A††††††††† I threatened him to help me.

Q††††††††† Oh, okay, so, so some other men did that to your bum too, is that right?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† And where was Peter when the other men were doing it?

A††††††††† Um, he was taking photos and, and round and about Ö children.

Q††††††††† So who was, did any other kids, which kids, oh, oh you told me, um [male name] went there, didnít he? Which kid went the most?

A††††††††† Um, [male name].

Q††††††††† Did you always go with other kids or did you sometimes go by yourself?

A††††††††† Ah once I went on my own and it was pretty scary.

Q††††††††† What, what made it scary when you went on your own?

A††††††††† Cos no, ah, other kid was there. He could only do bad things to me and all the other and all the, ah, all his friends were standing around there laughing.

Q††††††††† At you?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† What were they laughing at, what was Peter doing?

A††††††††† They was, they were laughing while Peter was doing and he said donít worry, Peter, heíll never tell.

Q††††††††† Which one said that?

A††††††††† All his friends.

Q††††††††† And what was Peter doing to you when they were laughing?

A††††††††† Oh, well, just like I said in the past.

Q††††††††† Yeah, which one, was he doing with his penis, on, your hand on his penis or?

A††††††††† Yeah Ö

Q††††††††† Or the penis on the bum or the swear words or what?

A††††††††† Pen Ö putting his penis on my bum.

Q††††††††† And you just went there by yourself once?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† And they took photos. What did they do with the photos?

A††††††††† What? Oh, they probably hanged them up in their, um, house and every morning they probably laugh at them.