The Christchurch Civic Creche Case

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Toddler Testimonies Main Page†††††† ††Transcripts of Interviews †††††††††††Analysis of Interviews

Transcripts of Interviews with child witnesses

Bart Dogwood aged 6, 1st interview recorded 14 May 1992

(Names as used in the book "A City Possessed" )

A††††††††† He smacked my bum.

Q††††††††† And he smacked your bum, yeah?

A††††††††† Real hard.

Q††††††††† Real hard. I wonder why he smacked your bum.

A††††††††† I canít remember. I donít. I remember he smacked it.

Q††††††††† Right, so where, did you have clothes on?

A††††††††† He pulled down my pants because I had to get changed.

Q††††††††† Oh why did you have to get changed Ö ?

A††††††††† Because I done poos in my bum, that was when I was really really very little.

Q††††††††† You had done poos?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† In your pants?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Oh and so you had to get changed?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Right, so, was, um, were you getting changed by yourself or was, was Peter helping you or what?

A††††††††† Peter was doing it.

Q††††††††† Yeah, so he pulled down your pants?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And then what happened?

A††††††††† What do you mean what happened?

Q††††††††† Well, he pulled down, you went, you were in the toilet with Peter?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And he pulled down your pants because you had done poos in your pants?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Because you were little?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† And so did your pants come right off or just some just a wee way off?

A††††††††† Just a wee way off.

Q††††††††† Mm and what was Peter doing?

A††††††††† Changing me.

Q††††††††† Changing you, right, and you said that he smacked your bum?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And he wobbled your penis, ah, wobbled your dick?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Yeah?

A††††††††† I Ö

Q††††††††† Sorry, love, I didnít hear that.

A††††††††† I donít mind what you call it but as long as Ö

Q††††††††† Yeah, well you call it a dick so thatís what we call it, okay. Because kids call it all sorts of different names. Your brother might call it a different name.

A††††††††† He always calls it dick.

Q††††††††† He calls it dick too and, um, and so you donít remember whether Peter said anything? You donít remember that you said anything?

A††††††††† Neither of us said anything.

Q††††††††† Right so when he wobbled your dick, how did he do that, can you explain that to me?

A††††††††† He just got his hand and wobbled it side to side.

Q††††††††† Ah ha and, um, did that feel like it was an okay thing or not okay?

A††††††††† It wasnít okay.

Q††††††††† It wasnít okay, so Ö

A††††††††† Well now itís not but then it tickled.

Q††††††††† It tickled, yeah. So did you use to, when you went and did wees in the toilet, did you use to go all by yourself?

A††††††††† Yeah, when I was older.

Q††††††††† Yeah, so when did you, when you went to the toilet, when did you need help to go when you did wees or poos?

A††††††††† Both.

Q††††††††† Both.

A††††††††† And that was when I was young. When I was older I could do both on my own.

Q††††††††† Right, so did any of the other teachers ever help you in the toilet?

A††††††††† Um, no. I canít remember.

Q††††††††† Mmm but you remember this, this time, and so were there any, ever any other times when, when, um, when things like that happened?

A††††††††† No, not really. I know this other guy that left.

Q††††††††† Yeah, what was his name?

A††††††††† I think it was [male name]. I canít remember.

Q††††††††† Mmm and did he used to be a teacher there too?

A††††††††† Yeah he, he went away for same thing as Peter.

Q††††††††† Did he, oh. And um did you like [male name]?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† I didnít even know he did that.

Q††††††††† Right, so how do you know that he did the same thing as Peter?

A††††††††† Cos my mum and dad told me.

Q††††††††† Oh right. So who was the very first person that you told about this wobbling your pen, your, um, dick?

A††††††††† I didnít tell anyone.

Q††††††††† Not at the time?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† No, but when you were older?

A††††††††† When I was at school I told Mum and Dad.

Q††††††††† Yeah. Who was the very first person that you told?

A††††††††† [Female name].

Q††††††††† Yeah, you tell anyone else before that?

A††††††††† No, I only told my, um, brothers.

Q††††††††† You told your brother, brothers or brother?

A††††††††† Brothers.

Q††††††††† Brothers. So which brothers did you tell?

A††††††††† Um, I only told Ö

Q††††††††† Mmm and then you told Mum and Dad?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Mmm, okay, well. Was there one of these in the toilets?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Now you canít remember how many toilets there was?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† No, okay, what I need you to do Ö is hereís the toilet. Whereabouts, can you remember where the hand-basin was?

A††††††††† It depends where the room was.

Q††††††††† Oh, right, so weíll just say that this is the toilet, okay, and weíll put the hand-basin here or something, so did the toilet have Ö

A††††††††† How about if I was there. There was the wall Ö it would be out of the room.

Q††††††††† Okay, so the toilet had a wall there?

A††††††††† Yeah and.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† The basin was just about there.

Q††††††††† And did the toilet have a door on it?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Yeah, so, when, um.

A††††††††† And it had um Ö It had a lock on it as well but I never locked it.

Q††††††††† Right so when Peter was, um, in the toilet with you that time, was the door open or shut?

A††††††††† He I didnít go in there, heíd, there was this board and it had something like you put babies on because I was just a baby then and he put me on there and then changed me.

Q††††††††† Oh where was the board?

A††††††††† Oh it was about that tall and it was about there.

Q††††††††† And was it near the toilet?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm. And so can you remember whether the door was open the toilet door was open or shut?

A††††††††† Oh, well, I canít remember.

Q††††††††† So heís Ö letís say this is the board. We havenít got, oh, we use the rubber, whereabouts was the board that you stood on?

A††††††††† I didnít stand on it. The board was about that tall.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† And I was down there.

Q††††††††† Right so when, um, when he wobbled your dick and smacked your bottom where were you standing exactly?

A††††††††† I was standing, I was, I was Ö when he smacked my bottom and he, and he wobbled my, um, dick, oh, he wobbled my thing when I was on there.

Q††††††††† Right so you werenít in the toilet?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† You were outside the toilet but you were in, where all the toilets are, that part of the crŤche where the toilets are?

A††††††††† Yeah, what are you Ö yeah, I was in the toilets.

Q††††††††† Yeah but not right in the toilet?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Yeah, okay, so choose somebody here to be you, choose somebody, one of these people to be Ö

A††††††††† Theyíre all ladies.

Q††††††††† No theyíre not.

A††††††††† Oh, no.

Q††††††††† Weíll find a boy.

A††††††††† But all the boys got a foot taken off.

Q††††††††† Yes, theyíre getting a bit messy, arenít they. Well what about, is there anyone there that we can just say might be you just so you can show me? Does that look like a you, sort of?

A††††††††† No Ö

Q††††††††† Right, can you find someone to be Peter?

A††††††††† Yeah, no you.

Q††††††††† Why did you pick that one?

A††††††††† I didnít even pick it. You find it.

Q††††††††† You choose someone to be Peter.

A††††††††† You. I donít want to.

Q††††††††† You donít want to. All right, well, you need to choose someone whoís bigger than you, donít we. So letís see, um, okay, well, weíll choose that one there. So can you show me using this as Ö and this as Peter? How were you standing when he wobbled your dick? Well, were you standing or sitting?

A††††††††† No, I was I was lying on there.

Q††††††††† Sorry.

A††††††††† I was lying on there.

Q††††††††† You were lying on the, on that?

A††††††††† Board.

Q††††††††† Board.

A††††††††† Yeah, it was about that high and I was lying on the edge of it.

Q††††††††† Right, so you were lying on the board when he, when he, um, wobbled your dick and so where was Peter? Was he standing or sitting or what?

A††††††††† He was standing.

Q††††††††† Yeah and, um, and he took your pants off?

A††††††††† Oh, yeah, he only pulled them down to about there.

Q††††††††† Pulled your pants down to there and that and then what happened next?

A††††††††† Oh.

Q††††††††† Pulled your pants down to about there and then what happened?

A††††††††† And he pulled it there.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† And he, and then he, um, wobbled my dick and then he, um, changed me and then he brought me back into the crŤche.

Q††††††††† Right so he wobbled your dick and then he changed you and then he brought you back into the crŤche. And whereabouts was it he smacked your bottom?

A††††††††† In the toilets but that was another time.

Q††††††††† That was another time. Oh, okay.

A††††††††† Ö because when I, um, when I did go in there.

Q††††††††† Ah ha, right, so was it the same day or a different day?

A††††††††† It was a different day, but when he smacked my bottom I felt, yeah, I was still in there.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm, so when he wobbled your dick you were lying like that and he had taken your pants down.

A††††††††† Ö I was going like that.

Q††††††††† Mmm Ö take your finger out of your mouth and you were lying like that and he took your pants down to about there and wobbled your dick and then changed your pants.

A††††††††† And then he.

Q††††††††† And then took, you went back out to the crŤche.

A††††††††† Yeah and then another day smacked my bum.

Q††††††††† Another day smacked your bum and the day he smacked your bum where were you?

A††††††††† In the toilets.

Q††††††††† So were you, show me where you were.

A††††††††† On there again.

Q††††††††† On there again and tell me how that happened.

A††††††††† What do you mean? How that happened?

Q††††††††† Well, was it, were you lying the same way?


A††††††††† Mmm there.

Q††††††††† In the middle?

A††††††††† Down there.

Q††††††††† Point to the picture.

A††††††††† Down there, smacked it there.

Q††††††††† Right in the middle sort of by where your poos hole is?

A††††††††† Mmm, he smacked it right there.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm and it was a hard smack?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And what happened first? Was it the wobbling your dick from side to side or the smack, what happened first?

A††††††††† Um, wobbling.

Q††††††††† Wobbling your dick?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† And how long after that happened did this smack, did the smack bum happen? Was it a short time after or a long time after?

A††††††††† I think it happened, both happened the same day.

Q††††††††† You think it might have happened both the same day, yeah. Are you not too sure about that or are you sure about that or what?

A††††††††† Iím sure about it.

Q††††††††† Yeah, it might have both happened the same day but different times.

A††††††††† Yep, it did happen, both, it did happen Ö

Q††††††††† Well do you think thereís anything else Ö that that you need to tell me about crŤche and about Peter?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† So thatís the things that you told Ö too, aye?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Mmm, okay, so you think thatís absolutely everything about the things you told [name] and Mum about Peter and the crŤche. Can you remember any other things happening that you didnít like?

A††††††††† There was no other things anyway.

Q††††††††† There was no other things?

A††††††††† Nope.

Q††††††††† Okay, all right, well I think thatís all I need to ask you then.

A††††††††† Iíll finish this off at home.

Q††††††††† Yeah you can take it home and finish it off. Now is there anything else that, um, you canít think of anything else?

A††††††††† No.

Q††††††††† Okay.

A††††††††† There was this adult in the movie and he was called Peter.

Q††††††††† Right.

A††††††††† Peter Pan.

Q††††††††† Yeah and he used to fly.

A††††††††† He did learn to fly.

Q††††††††† Yeah and what made him learn to fly?

A††††††††† A happy feeling.

Q††††††††† A happy thought, a happy feeling, yeah.

A††††††††† Yeah, a happy thought.

Q††††††††† Mmm and what did you think about the guys on the skateboard?

A††††††††† What do you mean the guys on the skateboard?

Q††††††††† On the skateboard when they were, when they were having their big sort of big fish and they were going up and down and Peter got on the skateboard.

A††††††††† Oh, yeah, yeah, that was cool.

Q††††††††† It was, wasnít it, and the guy with the big mohawk hairdo.

A††††††††† Yeah he had, I think, he got left on the pirate ship.

Q††††††††† Mmm mmm. Hey, I just thought of one more question that might, um, you might be able to know. When he wobbled your dick.

A††††††††† Mmm.

Q††††††††† How many times did it wobble from side to side do you think?

A††††††††† Um, five.

Q††††††††† Mm hmm, okay. All right, itís now 11.34 and weíve finished our talk.

A††††††††† Mmm. This felt doesnít work.

Q††††††††† No, some of them are a bit funny and who did you go and see Hook with?

A††††††††† My brother Ö

Q††††††††† Yeah and did he like it?

A††††††††† Yep.

Q††††††††† Yeah, I loved it. I laughed and laughed it was great.

A††††††††† It was a bit funny.

Q††††††††† Yeah, was there any sad bits in it?

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† Yeah, what were the sad bits?

A††††††††† When, um, you know, Peter Pan, when he ran away when heís a baby.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† He was lying down in the rain.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† And he was crying.

Q††††††††† And Tinkerbell had to come and take him away didnít she.

A††††††††† Who was that?

Q††††††††† Tinkerbell.

A††††††††† Whoís that?

Q††††††††† The fairy.

A††††††††† Yeah.

Q††††††††† The fairy lady.

A††††††††† I didnít even know her name.

Q††††††††† Tinkerbell.

A††††††††† How do you know?

Q††††††††† Because I used to read Peter Pan when I was a little girl so I know that story, and Captain Hook, he was such a silly, wasnít he?

A††††††††† Yeah he got ate.

Q††††††††† Yeah.

A††††††††† He got aten up by that alligator.

Q††††††††† Yeah, yeah, he was such a silly and mean.

A††††††††† Hey, you know Peter Panís.